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 Post subject: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Elder Dragon

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1U
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Counter target Blue spell. If it was a Jace planeswalker spell, Scry 2.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Elder Dragon
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One the one hand, fuck blue, and fuck Jace. On the other hand, it's still a blue counterspell. So torn.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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Twinblaze wrote:
One the one hand, fuck blue, and fuck Jace. On the other hand, it's still a blue counterspell. So torn.

But it's a blue counterspell that can't counter red spells. It only counters that which you hate, and the enemy of my enemy...


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Elder Dragon
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But in this case the enemy of my enemy is the enemy that my enemy is, so if the enemy of the enemy is my friend then the enemy that's the enemy of my enemy is now the enemy of my friend, and therefore my enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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Twinblaze wrote:
But in this case the enemy of my enemy is the enemy that my enemy is, so if the enemy of the enemy is my friend then the enemy that's the enemy of my enemy is now the enemy of my friend, and therefore my enemy.

All I'm saying is, if someone casts this spell in your EDH game, kill them second.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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For the record, I genuinely dislike the design of these "Defeat" cards. They tick off so many boxes on my personal DO NOT WANT! list that it's almost offensive.

They're only useful if your opponent is using a specific color? DO NOT WANT!

They refer to other cards by name? DO NOT WANT!!

They take up an uncommon slot that could have held a card that's actually good? DO NOT WANT!!!

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Elder Dragon

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Mal wrote:
For the record, I genuinely dislike the design of these "Defeat" cards. They tick off so many boxes on my personal DO NOT WANT! list that it's almost offensive.

They're only useful if your opponent is using a specific color? DO NOT WANT!

They refer to other cards by name? DO NOT WANT!!

They take up an uncommon slot that could have held a card that's actually good? DO NOT WANT!!!

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IN ALL FAIRNESS, lets compare these to Theros
Gideon's Defeat vs. Glare of Heresy
Doesn't hit Tamiyo, Field Researcher or non attacking Gideon, lower CMC, instant speed.

Jace's Defeat vs. Gainsay
Strictly better.

Liliana's Defeat vs. Dark Betrayal
Sorcery vs. Instant, otherwise strictly better. I would have killed for this in a format with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver.

Chandra's Defeat vs. Peak Eruption
SOOOO much better to have 5 damage to a walker than probably 3 damage, and basically hard removal against red decks. The rummage is also pretty decent against Chandra spots.

Nissa's Defeat vs. Hunt the Hunter
We don't live in a Siege Rhino mirror world so it's not too bad. Destroying everything other than artifacts and creatures is reasonable for a green card.

I am GLAD that these are in the format. I am glad that they refer to TYPE rather than name so that they're good against both SOI Jace and XLN Jace, or EMN Lili AND AKH Lili.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:29 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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As a matter of fact, I also dislike the design of Glare of Heresy, Gainsay, Dark Betrayal, Peak Eruption, and Hunt the Hunter. Pointing out that the "Defeat" cycle is better than a bunch of cards I think are poorly designed does little to convince me that the "Defeat" cycle is well designed.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:51 am 
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Ancient Dragon
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Mal wrote:
As a matter of fact, I also dislike the design of Glare of Heresy, Gainsay, Dark Betrayal, Peak Eruption, and Hunt the Hunter. Pointing out that the "Defeat" cycle is better than a bunch of cards I think are poorly designed does little to convince me that the "Defeat" cycle is well designed.

So you don't like any hate cards dedicated towards color or type? Where do you draw the line? Boil for targeting blue players? Blood Moon for targeting multi-color players/nonbasic land players? Wrath of god for targeting creature players? Island for targeting Magic players? Any non-colorless card for having a color associated with them and therefore increasing playability of that color?


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:08 am 
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Spamslayer Dragon
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I like the way Shadowmoor did hosers, like Gloomlance - generally useful, but better against whatever it's hosing.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:15 am 
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Ancient Dragon
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What Arix said.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:17 am 
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Ancient Dragon
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Well, that removes your argument against these cards naming a Planeswalker type since that works in the same method, but it still doesn't answer my question. How dedicated does a hate card have to be for you to dislike it and what's bad about hate cards requiring an opponent to have a certain playstyle? This card is useless against green decks just like path to exile is useless against boggles and Back to Nature is useless against decks that have no enchantments.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this, Epoa. If a card is useless unless my oponent is using a certain color, I don't like it.

This feels like it's turned into the Spanish Inquisition. I wasn't expecting that.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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Mal wrote:
I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this, Epoa. If a card is useless unless my oponent is using a certain color, I don't like it.

This feels like it's turned into the Spanish Inquisition. I wasn't expecting that.

I'm just wondering why color-hate is the defining reason to hate a card. There are plenty of cards that are useless unless an opponent does this or an opponent does that, why do you draw the line at color?


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Ancient Dragon
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It's simply a matter of personal taste. Your argument seems logical on the surface; but it is basically saying, "he likes maple syrup on his pancakes so he must also like sriracha sauce on his pancakes because maple syrup and sriracha sauce are both condiments." It fails to take personal taste into account.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Jace's Defeat
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Elder Dragon
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Epoa wrote:
Island for targeting Magic players?


Can we all agree, tho, that the above comment is true?


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